Amico: Cavs should stick to guns, and will

Cavs guard Isaiah Thomas says he may not ever talk to Danny Ainge again.

Without hesitation, the Cleveland Cavaliers will veto the trade that sent Kyrie Irving to the Boston Celtics if they can’t come to an agreement on what to do about Isaiah Thomas.

This is the deal the Cavs wanted — but not the only deal that’s been offered for Irving. A month remains before camp, and the Cavs can indeed trade Irving elsewhere before then.

But what would the Celtics do if they had to keep Thomas?

If you’re the Celtics, it seems like the best you can do here is play “hardball.” But if you lose, and the Cavs back out, then what?

Now, there are a lot of different layers to this, a lot of opinions being thrown against the wall. Some just don’t stick.

As of today, the deal that sent Irving to the Celtics for Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic and Brooklyn’s first-round draft pick is on hold.

Thomas injured his hip against the Cavs in the playoffs in May. He bypassed surgery. Clearly, the injury is worse than the Cavs initially believed — or as they might tell you, worse than they were initially led to believe by the Celtics.

Rumor has it the Celtics are willing to throw in a second-round pick to “sweeten the deal.” Rumor has it the Cavs want another first, if not another player.

Cavs general manager Koby Altman especially values Crowder and that Brooklyn pick. He is willing to absorb Thomas, who may or may not need surgery and could be months away from a return. Altman and the Cavs want this deal — but they are also going as “all in” as possible on the season.

If Thomas can’t do that until, say, January or February, then the Cavs have no choice but to reconsider. Searching for another Irving deal is not their preference. But again, it’s not nearly as bad as what the Celtics might go through if the deal is called off.

One source said “his agent has gone off the grid” in reference to Thomas, describing the point guard’s dismay with the Celtics. Later, the source added that Thomas’ camp “is very unhappy with Boston’s front office.”

So the last thing the Celtics want is to bring back an injured and angry Thomas, who’s in the final year of his contract.

Instead, they would much rather have Irving — a dynamic All-Star who waived a trade kicker for about $6 million to play with his new team.

WORKS BOTH WAYS

Now, none of this is to imply that vetoing the trade would be a best-case scenario for the Cavs.

The Celtics are well aware of Altman’s affinity for Crowder and Thomas, as well as the promise of Zizic, and especially, that pick. While the Cavs hold some real leverage here, it’s not all of the leverage. The Cavs made the trade because they liked all of the elements, not just Thomas. They want it to work out, and the Celtics know it.

The Celtics also know it will be hard for the Cavs to receive another lottery pick in return for a deal centered on Irving. The Cavs tried before, to no avail.

So let’s not pretend Boston is weak, or has no say in what happens next.

But the Cavs are willing to work with the Celtics, and refuse to believe they are in anything other than the driver’s seat.

“They still have Derrick Rose to play point guard,” one opposing GM told Amico Hoops of the Cavs. “Who will the Celtics have without Irving? Isaiah Thomas? Marcus Smart? Good luck with that.”

There has been a lot of tough talk from columnists and fans, and perhaps a couple of team officials and agents through the press. But the real truth is, both sides want this deal to work and are seeking a solution.

If one isn’t found, the Cavs will move on. That will be bad news for them, but much worse for the Celtics.

46 Comments on "Amico: Cavs should stick to guns, and will"

  1. Great stuff Sam I agree, I think the cavs want another 1st or a player and if they do not get it they will void the deal and I think they should void the deal if its anything less than that.

    • This is the Cleveland GM being a complete moron, and that’s it.

      As it stands, this is a very fair trade. Even if Thomas missed the entire season, he is still a $7m expiring contract who could save the Cavs a ton of money in luxury tax – and even he happens to not play the Cavs still have Rose as a backup.

      On top of that they get Crowder, who is an excellent two-way player who can take pressure off Lebron defensively and can help stretch the floor on offense while also bringing physicality and toughness – all things the Cavs desperately need.

      Then on top of that they get the 2018 Brooklyn pick which, lets not kid ourselves, is almost guaranteed to fall in the top 3. And Zizic who will likely develop in to (at the very least) a quality backup center if not more.

      If I were Danny Ainge, I would dare the Cavs to void this deal.

      The Cavs cannot beat Golden State in their current state, and this has already been proven. Golden State is just too talented. And if Cavs don’t appear at least competitive for a title this year, then chances are Lebron walks.

      By making this trade the Cavs put themselves in a stronger position to challenge for that championship. And by adding some quality future assets (Crowder on one of the leagues best contracts, Zizic tied up for years on a rookie deal, and a likely top 3 pick) the Cavs put themselves in the best possible position to deal with a rebuild if Lebron DOES decide to walk.

      If they cancel the deal, what’s the worst that can happen for Boston? They get their assets back?

      The only challenge would be dealing with IT, since he will probably be upset after being traded, and his contract is expiring, so Boston might be forced to try and trade him on the cheap. Even if that happens, Boston has Marcus Smart who is capable of starting (remember Boston’s one win against Cleveland in the finals came when Smart starting) and they could almost certainly get back a starting calibre PG of some description in return for Thomas.

      Other then that they get Zizic back (they certainly could use the size), they get Crowder back (he’s got years left on his deal, so he can’t exactly walk) and they have their Nets pick back which they can then use next year to potentially draft another great young talent to combine with Tatum, Brown and Smart.

      Cleveland stands to actually lose a lot more then Boston does if they void this trade. If I were the Celtics GM I’d offer maybe a weak 2nd round pick on top and that’s it. Everybody knew IT was injured when this deal was made – even the general public knew it. That’s precisely why Boston has overpaid in the trade to begin with – I guarantee you if Thomas wasn’t injured and didn’t have an expiring contract, there’s no way Clevleand would have been offered this much.

      • Chris Racer | August 27, 2017 at 9:53 pm |

        Pete, you realize Crowder could do the exact same thing as Irving and request a trade so you would be without Crowder and Thomas.

        • You are speculating now.

          Crowder is a role player. Role players always know that they can be traded at any time and usually learn to accept it.

          Plus, regardless of whether he is going to Clevleand or Boston, he’s on a guaranteed playoffs team and potential finals team either way – why would he complain and ask to be traded when he’s most likely find himself in a worse position?

          Then on top of all that, even if he DID try to request a trade, he has no leverage to really do so. He’s still got 2 or 3 years on his contract, so Boston has no need to trade him.

  2. Hey sam

    How about getting the suns in this to make it work..
    Suns get…IT and a 1st
    Celtics get…kyrie
    Cavs get..bledsoe crowder zizc brooklyn 1

    Cavs get win now point guard in bledsoe and suns increase lottery odds while IT heals and can then evaluate second half of season to see if they want to extend him long term.

    • Boston isn’t giving up another 1st.

      Does nobody recall how much of a tight-ass Danny Ainge is, and how much he hates giving up assets? It’s amazing he even gave up this much to begin with.

      I mean, this is the same Danny Ainge who turned down the Bulls when they offered Jimmy Butler for #3 straight up, and the Same Danny Ainge who turned down an Ibaka trade because he didn’t want to give up Terry Rozier.

      I don’t know if there is a single GM in the league who is more tight with their assets then Ainge is – I see very little chance of him giving up a 1st round pick unless it’s one that’s projected to land in the 25-30 range (in which case a early 2nd rounder is probably more valuable).

  3. Rose is so much better than Marcus Smart? Rose got 1 yr, 2.1 million as unrestricted FA. Smarts projected number is 4 years $60-$80 million next summer. That whistling sound you hear is your credibility flying out the window.

    • requiredbylaw | August 27, 2017 at 2:44 pm |

      Wow! You’re hipper than an NBA GM! Right.

    • Smart is an above average defender but he’s not a natural PG and he can’t shoot a lick.

      • Derek Rose is not a natural PG either (he’s a SG in a PG’s body), he’s an even worse shooter then Smart (22% 3PT on 0.8 attempts per game), he can’t defend to save his life, he has no upside due to his age, and he’s an injury waiting to happen.

        So yes, Marcus Smart is probably a more valuable asset then Derek Rose right now. Shooting consistency is really the one glaring fault in his game, and if he ever improves that (which he may or may not) then he could actually become a very nice player. He’s not a natural PG no, but he is a capable one. How many people in the league now days ARE natural PGs? Not many.

  4. Marcus Smart is not a pure point guard and he does not shoot well enough to be a starting SG. He is a combo guard that is ok at best at each position. The only thing he does exceptionally well is play defense. I would never pay this dude between 60-80 million that would be a huge mistake on any teams part. And yes, Derrick Rose is a better player with all things considered, except for at the defensive end of the floor where Smart has the advantage by far.

    • Derrick Rose at this point is not as good as Marcus Smart. Smart is a better rebounder, obviously Defender, and passer. I would trust him more with the keys to the Cavs point guard situation than Derrick Rose

      • As the GM quoted in this article states, “Good luck with that!” It was probably Danny Ainge. hahahaha

      • I don’t believe either one of them should be starting for any team unless it’s expected to be a short term option. Smart is the tony allen of point guards only he isn’t as good defensively and doesn’t realize his role offensively yet. Allen has learned his role over the years and averages the same amount of points while shooting 12% better from the floor. Smart would need to become a 1st team defensive talent to justify starting for anyone, even a team with 4 other players that can actually shoot.

      • And that’s why you do what you do instead of being in an NBA front office. Nobody in their right mind wants Smart starting at PG for their team.

        • And Rose?

          Why do you think New York were so eager for him to walk?

          Smart might not be the ultimate starting PG, but Rose is worse. And that’s assuming Rose can even manage to play more than 50 games.

  5. Philip Sampson | August 27, 2017 at 3:27 pm |

    This is quiet a biast piece with no actual balance. If the deal does not go ahead the celtics carry on and still not beat golden state. The Cavaliers are not going to win but if they dont do this trade Kyrie wants gone and LeBron will leabe and the cavs would have no trade. Mean while the celtica still have a lot of assets to make a sognificant trade on draft night. The cavs will take the offer. Unless the pride of a young GM tries to prove himself agianst the big bad Celtics managment team.

    • I disagree. If the deal is voided, Cavs simply trade to another team. And win their 4th consecutive Eastern Conference title. At the end of this year, the Celtics will then have to figure out what to do as they’ll have to pay a lot of money for a mediocre team and a handful of players that certainly aren’t going to sign for them. !. The guys that couldn’t stand IT in the first place in the locker room will have to put up with his crap for another year and 2. the guys that were suppose to go to the Cavs in this deal are ticked off at the organization and won’t sign with them. 3. Fans riot b/c with all those pics for all these years and nothing to show for it.

      • So wrong…Cleveland needs this trade way more then Boston, and here is why:

        1. Isaiah
        Trading with Boston is the only way Clevleand can trade away Kyrie without making themsevles significantly worse in the process. Losing Kyrie is a massive blow to Cleveland, and they get to avoid that blow by replacing him with an equally capable scorer in Isaiah Thomas (29 PPG last season). Thomas is 85%-90% the player Kyrie is – so the Cavs are mightly lucky that Boston is able to offer them another player of similar quality/production at the same position. No other team in the NBA can/will offer that. It allows Clevleand to give up Kyrie without actually getting any worse as a team.

        2. The Pick
        Whether they like it or not, Lebron will not commit long term to the Cavs right now. What he does is likely going to depend on how this season goes – if the Cavs cant beat (or at least put up a reasoanble fight against) the Warriors, he’s probably going to walk. Cleveland need to do everything they can to (a) try to convince Lebron to stay and (b) put themselves in a position to be able to re-tool and remain competitive in the event that he doesn’t. That Brooklyn pick will be THE most valuable draft pick available this year. The Cavs have been wanting to upgrade on Kevin Love for some time now. If they offer Love and that Brooklyn pick to another team, they could potentially get back a significantly better star who might not only make Clevleand more competitive, but might also help convince Lebron to stick around. Or they could hold the pick just in case Lebron does leave, and use it to draft a top 3 guy who could then form the face of the franchise moving forward. Either way, the pick is absolutely huge for Cleveland and may well prove to be THE most valuable asset in this entire trade.

        3. Crowder
        Again, the only way you’re stopping Lebron from leaving is by making the Cavs more competitive with Golden State. Crowder does exactly that. The duo of Crowder/Lebron/Thompson could potentially defend Klay/Durant/Draymond better then any other trio in the league. Having Crowder out there against Golden State makes the Cavs significantly more competitive against the Warriors, which (again) increases the chances of Lebron sticking around – especially since you have Crowder locked in on a bargain contract for the next 2-3 years.

        4. Expectations
        Boston are only 3-4 years on from a rebuild, and they have surpassed all expectations to get to where they are. Nobody expected them to make the finals last year, or to win the #1 seed in the East. They are playing with house money. If they don’t make the finals this year, nobody really cares – everybody knows that they are built just as much for the future (with their stockpile of assets) as they are for the current day, so they can afford to take a step back for a year or two if it means they can take an extra step forward later.

        The Cavs don’t have that luxury. The Cavs are EXPECTED to win the East, they are EXPECTED to make the finals, and they are EXPECTED to win a championship. Anything less then that is a failure. Anything less then that increases the risk that Lebron walks in the offseason, and they entire franchise falls back to the point where they’re struggling to make the playoffs again. Nobody wants that. Fans don’t wont that, owners don’t want that, players don’t want that. Clevleand HAVE to succeed. Boston doesn’t. For Boston any success they get is pretty much a bonus.

        5. Celtics locker room
        Any talk of people not like Thomas in Boston’s locker room was garbage. No player has ever said they didn’t like Boston, and those on the inside have all said it’s BS. It’s never been an issue, and was just another story made up for the tabloids – just as people love to make up stories about Lebron just to try and get attention.

        6. The guys who were supposed to go to Cleveland would be Crowder and Zizic. Both are on long term contracts (2-3 years plus) so signing is not a prroblem.

        7. Fans will riot? There are probably legitimately more Celtics fans that are upset with the deal then there are who are for the deal. Boston fans have been holding on to those Brooklyn picks like priceless artifacts – they do not want to give them up. The general point of view from most Celtics fans is that this deal was horribly one side, and Boston gave up way too much in order to get back Kyrie – who many believe is a side-step rather than an upgrade (since Kyrie is basically just a taller Isaiah Thomas). In addition to that, Thomas and Crowder are both big time fan favourites in Boston, they the fans were extremely sad to hear of them being traded. I can’t think of any Celtics fans who would actually be UPSET to head that Thomas and Crowder are coming back after all. They would all welcome them back, and would especially welcome back that Brooklyn pick.

        • Isaiah had a season that he could never dream of replicating even if he were 100% let alone with his second hip injury (first one being in high school). He was the #1 option on a team with no #2 option, was historically great in the clutch, and did all of this in the REGULAR SEASON. Secondly, without knowing the extent of the injury we have no clue as fans when he will be back, let alone how well he will play. Joining a new team, having to re-adjust his game to fit playing with Lebron James, at this point he’s in the trade because the cavs need his salary and could only hope he’s 75% of last year.
          If I.T isn’t as good as last year or even worse, barely plays, this trade is essentially Crowder + the BKN pick and a throw in for salary purposes that won’t play this season.
          I too believe the locker room talk was BS, especially when there are only 4 returning players from last year, but I.T and Crowder are hands down the two most emotional players in this league, having those two return to that team, especially with the reports directly from people who have spoken to either them or their family, that say how betrayed and upset they feel, you can’t just chalk that up and say “ah, they are professionals they’ll get over it.”
          Also, even if I.T some how was 100% by the playoffs, in basketball shape, and playing exactly how he did last year (nope), the Cavs are getting to the finals with whatever other trade they have available. So any trade they make just has to make them better against GS, the bucks can offer than, PHX can offer that (although I personally don’t think they would), and detroit can potentially offer that (eh).
          The brooklyn pick is the only thing that the Cavs would truly miss if they void this trade and that’s only if lebron truly has one foot out the door like the national media believes, and that is still only if it falls in the top 2, this is an extremely top heavy draft and there are a lot more bad teams that are tanking while BKN got slightly better and are trying their hardest to win games.
          You are severely overselling how bad this would be for Cleveland and are severely underselling how bad this would be for Boston. Even the most die hard, biased, Boston writers are admitting the nightmare Boston would face if this doesn’t go through.
          The Cavs may not have a better offer, but they have other options, Boston would be stuck with two emotionally distraught players, an injured point guard with Marcus Smart as his replacement. Two point guards on contract years one of which they clearly have no interest paying. You most likely don’t even finish top 4 in the east without I.T making miracles happen for the entire season (Cle, WSH, Tor, Mil, etc.) You are then having to find a replacement for I.T after this season without an available star to trade for and one year after the point guard dream draft (Fultz anyone?)
          The points you are trying to make is that Boston will have little too no issues if this fails (come on now, you’re the only person I’ve seen anywhere make this point) and that this is the best offer cleveland will get, therefore the Cavs are way worse if this fails. I do agree they can’t get a better offer, but I’ll takes the Cavs receiving 80% of this offer over the sh!t show Boston would have to deal with if this flops.

          • How did Brooklyn get better?!?!? Last year their best player was a 7’1″ 20/8 Brook Lopez. This season there best player is who – a 6’8″ 9 / 4 DeMarre Carroll?

            They will be every bit as bad as last year, and I cannot think of any team (aside from maybe Atlanta) who could possibly finish worse in the East. I certainly can’t think of a second team who could finish worse, so the way I see it Brooklyn should finish bottom 2 and would be pretty much guaranteed bottom 5 – theres no chance that there are 4 other teams out there that are worse then Brooklyn right now.

            Also, you just admitted straight out that Clevleand WILL NOT get a better deal for Kyrie then what Boston is offering them. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. So as the GM of the Cavs, why would you void a deal knowing full well that you will not get any better offers? That’s just poor business. You take the best deal you can get, and this is the best deal by far.

            As for Boston, they aren’t really in that tough of a spot. Lets say, worst case, they have IT and Crowder demanding trades. Now you have to trade those guys off for next to nothing. Fine.

            What does Boston have left? Only one of the NBA’s strongest young cores of Terry Rozier, Marcus Smart, Jaylen Brown, Jabusele, Jayson Tatum and Ante Zizic. Combine that young core with proven vets like Gordon Hayward, Al Hoford, Marcus Morris and Aaron Baynes. Throw in the Brooklyn 2018 1st, which can be used as a trade asset OR to bring in yet another great young talent to add to that core…Boston is in a great place, with or without Thomas and Crowder.

            That’s the beauty of what Ainge has done in Boston – he’s built that team to be competitive right now, without sacrificing future potential. So if something happens that makes the fail in the present, they still have almost unlimited upside to bank on. On top of that, they are only $10M over the cap. Move Thomas ($6m), Crowder (7m) for picks, then move Horford ($28m) to a contender for a young talent on a rookie contract – suddenly Boston can find themselves $25m under the cap and in a position to add more young talent to their core. Flexible is a great word to describe Boston’s position right now.

            The issue with Cleveland is that they have all of their eggs in one basket. They have invested everything into a “win now” mentality. They are $38m over the cap and $18m over the luxury tax threshold. Lets say you trade Kyrie (19m) for Bledsoe ($14.5m) and filler…and then you lose to the Warriors, and Lebron walks after the season. Now your two best players are Bledsoe and Love – that’s lucky to get you past the first round, especially given both player’s injury history. And on top of that, you’d still be about $3m over the salary cap, so you can’t do ANYTHING to improve that roster. Your only real options would be to hover in mediocrity for the next 2-3 years as a fringe playoff team, or else move Bledsoe and Love for picks and start a potential 3-5 year long rebuild.

            So again, Boston is in a pretty safe place. If the trade gets voided they have to deal with an unpleasant situation, sure. But after dealing with that, they’re still in a pretty strong position both now and in the future.

            Cleveland on the other hand get screwed in a massive way, because the Cavs entire success as a franchise right now is 100% dependant on Lebron James being in a Cavs uniform, and so the franchise is under immense pressure to do the best deal they possible can to make the Cavs as competitive as the possibly can be, in order to maximise the chances of Lebron staying.

            Boston are under no such pressure.

  6. The Cavs have ALL the leverage here. Thomas is injured and he is mad at Celtics. He now has LIMITED TO ZERO trade value. Celtics thought they were pulling a fast one on inexperienced GM and meddling owner and got caught by Cavs medical team.

    Voiding trade is a solid option if they don’t add another first rounder. KyMe still has value and if he wants to hold out…let him. I don’t want Jaylon Brown or Tatum because they play same position as LBJ and Crowder and won’t contribute as much this year.

    The extra pick gives us trade assets to get a significant talent in season or in draft.

    I agree with Sam… hold strong on additional asset request or void and start over with other teams. The hell with Celtics crying they don’t like Cavs “tatics”! I don’t like theres!!!

    • Cavs have no leverage, Boston have it all.

      This trade gets voided, Boston don’t care. They were not likely going to give a max contract to Isaiah at the end of the year anyway, which means he eventually would have walked for nothing. If he gets upset to go back to Boston and they HAVE to trade him away for limited assets, that’s no different to what they eventually would have had to do anyway.

      On the other hand, if the deal is voided then Boston gets Crowder and the Nets pick back – both are great assets for Boston, so no problems with those coming back. Zizic doens’t hurt either – skilled 20 year old 7-footers don’t grow on trees, and nobody needs size more desperately then Boston.

      On the other hand, if Clevleand doesn’t make this trade then they end up the same roster that they had last year, pretty much, along with a disgruntled Kyrie who doesn’t want to play there. We already know that roster can’t compete with Golden State, and if they don’t this year then Lebron walks and the entire Cavs franchise crumbles – back to lottery time again.

      If they do manage to trade Kyrie, then no other team can offer them anything even remotely close to the package of Thomas, Crowder and a potential #1 pick (which the UNPROTECTED Brooklyn pick is). Meaning that if Clevleand trades with any other team, they are going to be far worse of then if they just completed the trade with Boston.

      The Celtics had no tactics here. They made it clear to the Cavs that Thomas was injured. Hell even the general public knew it – everybody knew it. Thomas missed the last few games of the finals against Clevleand due to that very same injury, so if anybody should be aware of it, it’s the Cavs. They knew all about it, and they agreed to the deal anyway. Now they are threatening to void the trade as a way to try and blackmail Boston in to giving them even more assets (in a trade that was already one side in Clevleands favour).

      If I were Boston I would say “No problems – give us our guys back and our pick back, you can find another suitor for Kyrie – I’m done.”

      Would be the biggest mistake the Cavs as a franchise have ever made.

      • OK fine. The trade being voided makes me very happy. Have a nice night.

        • Lol. It’s rare that you don’t make my day on here anymore. I assure you I enjoy reading your comments every bit as much as you do my columns. (P.S. Still working on the whole “blowing off the socks” routine.)

  7. Stick to your guns Cavs – demand either Tatum or Brown

  8. The pick the pick. With all due respect I would rather acquire a proven young player than a pick that could go in any direction. I believe we used #4s on TT and Waiters. Hardly franchise changers. Cmon Cavs it’s time to walk away.

    • I’d give 2 counter points, 1) They only have two types of young players, smart and rozier who are worth less than a good pick, and brown and tatum that are worth more than a pick. So you’re either coming away with a backup point guard like smart that has no offensive game and you’d have to overpay (see shumpert) too keep, or getting turned down immediately. 2) A pick can be turned into something else, say the cavs get bostons 2018 pick, they then have 3 2018 picks and can trade 2 of them, maybe they could go after eric bledsoe with those two picks (just spitballing).

      • The Brooklyn 1st on it’s own could almost certainly get you Eric Bledsoe, straight up, if that’s the guy Clevleand wants.

        Remember that this is the Brooklyn Nets – their best player right now is Demare Carroll. They are absolutely garbage, and I’ll be shocked if they do not finish bottom 3. That pick is unprotected, and there’s a very real chance it could fall to #1. For a young rebuilding team like Phoenix, that pick is invaluable – they would likely give up anything (except Booker) for it.

        Remember Chicago offered Boston Jimmy Butler for #3 straight up this offseson, but Boston said no because they liked Tatum and wanted to go after Hayward. If a top 3 pick is good enough to get Jimmy Butler from a playoff Bulls team, then it’s definitely good enough to get Eric Bledsoe from a lottery Suns team.

        That’s why the Cavs are absolute idiots if they try to void this trade. Thomas’ injury status doesn’t even matter in this scenario. That Brooklyn pick is a strong enough asset to bring back a two-way PG (like Bledsoe) who could potentially have more impact on the Cavs then either Thomas or Kyrie would.

        And if Thomas ends up an excess asset (with Bledsoe and Rose already in place) then the Cavs can trade him (they would have bird rights, and could orchestrate a sign-and-trade to another team who needs a star PG) and almost certainly get an additional quality asset in return.

        This trade as it stands, is one of those rare deals that kinda works out well for both teams. It benefits Boston by getting them that star they want, and it benefits Cleveland EVEN MORE by allowing them to strengthen their roster and by putting them in a better position to convince Lebron to stay.

        • Pete, I admire your passion. Thank you for visiting the site and taking the time to comment!

        • No one is giving up a 1-8 Pick for Bledsoe, that’s the point of the Cavs seeking another asset, so they can use it on top of their pick too get a point guard who isn’t 5’8 coming off an injury, going to be injured for a chunk of the season, that couldn’t be a worse matchup against GS. Kyrie might be a bad defender, but at least when you hide him on Klay or Andre they don’t just laugh, post him up, and shoot over him. Isaiah Thomas has absolutely no trade value at all this whole ordeal has killed any of that, I can’t even believe the most biased of all celtics fans I’ve ever replied too would even think that. I can completely understand why you’re angry, but man, you are on another level if bias, don’t let some of the extremely biased cavs fans upset you so much that you try and top them. Us real cavs fans that are in tune with the NBA understand Brown or Taytum aren’t simply being added to this trade on top of everything else. I hope I didn’t make you pop a blood vessel by disagreeing with you, but you took this thread from funny discussions too soap opera and bollywood writing crazy.

          • The Cavs are getting Thomas, Crowder, Zizic and a potential #1 pick in return for Kyrie. That is far more value then Kyrie is worth, which is why the Cavs are the winner of this trade if it goes through.

            You’re also wrong about the matchup against GS. Look up the statistics out there – the vast majority of them will tell you that Kyrie is no better defensively then Thomas is. That’s not biased fanboy claims – that’s based on statistical fact. Look at opponent PPG, opponent FG%, opponent 3PT%, defensive rating – in all of those stats Thomas actually rates BETTER then Kyrie. The only stat I can find that rates Kyrie above Thomas is Defensive Real-Plus-Minus, and even in that statistic Kyrie is still right near the bottom of the barrel.

            Against Golden State, Cleveland in it’s current state cannot defend Steph Curry and Klay Thompson. JR Smith and Kyrie just aren’t equipped for that task. Kyrie can hang with Steph offensively, and Lebron can keep up with Durant, but Klay vs JR is not ending well for the Cavs.

            Moving Kyrie for Isaiah and Crowder solves that problem. You now have Crowder who can do a very good job defensively on Klay, taking away some of Golden State’s competitive edge.

            Like Kyrie, Thomas cannot defend Steph. But like Kyrie, Thomas can match him point for point on the offensive end. Or if they prefer to stick with a better size matchup, Cleveland can start Rose/Crowder/Lebron on the perimeter, and use Thomas as an 18 PPG – 20 PPG spark plug off the bench – Boston had a lot of success using him that way when he first came to Boston, and if you already have a starting calibre PG (Boston didn’t at the time) then it’s a very viable option.

            No matter how you look at is, that Clevleand roster is more competitive with Thomas and Crowder then it is with Kyrie and JR Smith.

            Then factor in the Brooklyn pick (which is valuable enough to bring you back a star if one becomes available) and Cleveland is in an infinitely stronger situation with the trade then without it.

            If Clevleand didn’t sign Derrick Rose, then I would say fair enough – having no starting PG for a couple of months while Thomas recovers would be a major hit. But Clevleand did sign Rose, so they have a guy who is very capable of start at that PG spot in the short term – and as a temporary solution that starting 5 of Rose, Crowder, Lebron, Love and Thompson is more than strong enough to carry Clevleand to a top 2 record in this garbage eastern conference while Isaiah recovers from his injury.

            Then once Isaiah comes back you have extra flaxiblity – start him and move Rose to the 6th man role, or keep Rose out there at PG and bring Thomas off the bench as an offensive spark plus. Either way the team gets stronger.

            Cleveland really has nothing to lose with this trade, given that they’re going to have to give Kyrie up anyway – you may as well get a competitive group of guys and a top shelf pick in return.

          • The main (and only) real point here is that Cleveland has a lot more at stake if this trade fails to go through.

            The worst things Boston can lose if the trade fails is Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder.

            The worst things Clevleand can lose is Kyrie Irving and Lebron James.

            Boston without Thomas/Crowder still has a strong young core that will compete in the playoffs today, and have endless potential for the future.

            Clevleand without Lebron and Kyrie has a team that is stuck in limbo – they’ll struggle to make the playoffs today, while having no future assets to help them tomorrow.

            Hell I really don’t care if the trade goes through or not. As a Celtics supporter, my team is in better shape if the deal does go through, but we’re still in good shape if it doesn’t.

            Cleveland however are in an great position if the deal goes through, but could lose everything if it doesn’t.

            If the trade goes through, both teams get better.

            If the deal fails, Celtics get a bit worse and the Cavs get a LOT worse.

            There just isn’t any justification for voiding the deal outside of a new GM just looking for an opportunity to flex his ego.

    • Hmmmm….the pick(s) may get the Celtics Kyrie Irving!! What can we get in return for picks vs. unproven Jaylen Brown or Tatum???

      • The Brooklyn pick is, IMHO, more valuable as a trade asset then either Brown or Tatum.

        It’s got potential to go #1 in what is being pitched as an incredibly talented draft class. If there are any teams that end up putting disgruntled stars on the trading block during the season, whichever team owns that Brooklyn pick (be it Clevleand or Boston) immediately becomes the front runner to land that deal.

  9. Brian Buonanni | August 27, 2017 at 8:08 pm |

    Celtics don’t need this deal. Even Crowder and NJ pick was too much. Tell them to fold Danny. We don’t need Irving.The trade was always to much. Tell them to go find another top 5 pick! Celtics will just keep improving every year. This year was never really our time!

    • Pretty much going to be the perspective of 90% of Celtics fans, and it’s a legit one.

      A healthy Isaiah Thomas for Kyrie Irving, straight up, would have been a great deal for Cleveland. It’s basically the only way they would be able to lose Kyrie while instantly replacing him with another player of similar calibre. Salary matching was needed, so they threw in Crowder – which already makes this a deal in Cleveland’s favour.

      But then you consider that Thomas is on an expiring contract AND is injured, so this leads to the need for some additional sweetening on Boston’s part – hence they throw in Zizic and (shockingly) the unprotected Brooklyn 1st – which has potential to fall as high as #1, especially not that Brook Lopez has been traded out to LA.

      So now you are pretty much offering a top three (29 PPG) scorer and All-Star, a very good two-way starter, a young 7-foot euro prospect, and a potential #1 pick…for Kyrie Irving?

      That’s the type of offer I would expect for somebody like Anthony Davis, Steph Curry or Demarcus Cousins – it’s a massive overpay for a shoot-first PG who doesn’t rebound, isn’t a great playmaker, and is a major liability on defence. Even if he is an elite scorer, he’s one who has major holes in other areas of his game.

      Cleveland should be absolutely overjoyed with what they are getting, especially considering the position Kyrie has put them in by demanding a trade – that’s pretty much opening the door for low ball offers.

  10. Make no mistake if this trade goes down and we get nothing else the Celtics catch us this year and may even pass us. Use logic…..they get Kyrie added to their roster and we add Crowder……Make sense?

    • Clevleand adds:
      * Crowder
      * Isaiah Thomas (he might miss a month or so, but will be back eventually)
      * A potential #1 pick, which they could very trade to bring back an extra star

      Meanwhile Boston will have given up 70% of their roster from last season (Thomas, Crowder, Bradley, Olynyk, Amir Johnson, Zeller, Jerebko, Green) only to add Kyrie, Hayward and rookie Jayson Tatum.

      I don’t see your logic on how that Celtics team would beat a Cleveland that lost Kyrie but added Rose, Crowder and Thomas added.

    • Even as a Celtics follower, I’m not convinced that the Celtics are better this year then we were last year, after this trade.

      The players Boston gave up may not seem like the biggest names, but Boston’s recent success came from their chemistry, their depth, and how well everybody played their role on that team. It was a case of the machine being more powerful then the sum of it’s parts.

      If Boston makes this deal then they’ve lost Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder and Kelly Olynyk – all three are quality two-way players were absolutely vital to Boston’s success last season in both the regular season and the playoffs.

      By losing those three guys and adding Kyrie and Hayward, Boston gets better offensively…but it comes at the cost of massively reduced depth (their bench is now made up almost exclusively of rookies) and a huge drop-off in defensive ability. That potential starting five (Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Morris, Horford) has potential to be one of the worst perimeter defenses in the league – even if the front court defense should be decent.

      Then on top of all that, Boston has still yet to address the real monkey in the room – rebounding. This has been a huge issue for the Celtics since KG left some 5 years ago, and it was Boston’s most exploited weakness during the playoffs last year.

      So there is a big part of me, as a Celtics supporter, who actually believes that Boston would be better off this year if they DON’T make this trade. At least they get to keep Crowder, Zizic (who gives them some size on the second unit) and that Brooklyn pick (which they could use to draft a talnted big to add to their Brown/Tatum future core).

      Personally I would probably prefer that over stripping away half their team to add Kyrie – who may well be a difference maker, or may well not. He’s never really proven he can be THE MAN and carry a team.

  11. OK a lot of stuff going on here between Celt and Cavs fans. That’s cool. For me the perfect solution is to just void the trade. Then Celtic fans can worry about Crowder and IT. The Cavs can worry about what to do about KI. Let’s just void the trade and move on.

  12. At the end of the day, this is what it comes down to. If the trade is voided…

    Worst case for Boston is that they lose Isaiah and Crowder for next to nothing due to both players demanding trades. If this happens they still have a great young core (Rozier, Smart, Brown, Hayward, Jabusele, Tatum, Zizic) to build around in addition to Horford and the Brooklyn 1st.

    Worse case for Cleveland is that they lose Kyrie (who they need to trade anyway) and Lebron (after accepting a less competitive deal for Kyrie). They would then need to trade away Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson for picks and trade relieve so that they can start a new rebuild.

    So looking at those two scenarios, which team is REALLY worse off if this deal doesn’t happen?

  13. Hey Pete. Interesting to hear a Celtics fan perspective. Thanks. What I think u r missing is that Cavs feel injury is worse than was thought. Doesn’t mean anyone lied or is trying to take advantage. Might just mean Celtics doctors said a month and Cavs doctors said surgery and Feb before playing. That’s a big difference. A lot of hype for Zizic but is he really that much better than Tavares? Summer league didn’t seem to indicate he would be. So if the trade is Crowder and the Nets pick and salary relief then it is making Cavs pause. Maybe it still is the best deal but certainly not clearly the best. Perhaps Cavs do not want IT now and they aren’t asking for more just different. Yes I am surmising but so is ever other national media member. The results are kept hidden because it is IT personal health. But for some to think Cavs r just trying to just squeeze more is silly and a fabrication of the anti-Cleveland national media.

  14. So those of you saying that Cleveland is getting more than what Kyrie is worth from Boston would you say that Crowder, Zizic, and the Brooklyn pick is enough to get Kyrie? I don’t think it is. You need to adjust the argument that Thomas is included. I believe that Boston hurt Thomas by not recommending he have surgery on his hip. If he has surgery, IT is done for the year. His hip may be so bad that the Cavs think his won’t play this year. So he is basically a financial reasons throw-in at this point. I would say that a fair deal is Boston’s 1st being added with the contingency that if IT plays more than 30 games in the regular season, then Boston retains the pick. That way the deal is the same if IT comes back, but it is mitigates the Cavs risk if he does not come back. The Cavs could then flip that Boston pick for another PG if needed.

    • It appears that a pick cannot be tied to a players performance so while your idea seems fair, it is not allowed.

  15. It appears that a pick cannot be tied to a players performance so while your idea seems fair, it is not allowed.

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